ADS-B... Let's Talk

Tell us about the things in your panels and flight bags.
User avatar
Soccer-Jock
Posts: 132
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2008 9:30 pm
Location: (Eric) Dunedin, Florida

ADS-B... Let's Talk

Postby Soccer-Jock » Sun Jan 03, 2010 6:11 pm

Guys, I've heard you toss around conversation on ADS-B in a few podcasts now. I've tried to do some research on this, but other than theory of operation and other similar data I cannot find what I'm looking for. I'm looking for a portable ADS-B device. Perhaps it doesn't exist yet. The closest thing I've found is an external module from NavWorx that can be ported to a display via RS-232.

Here's why I'm interested: 1) I've learned that Florida is one of the areas that has near-complete coverage. 2) While I love my Garmin 495, I'm tired of the vaseline I have to use every time I purchase updates from Garmin. They are PROUD of them. 3) I love my Zaon MRX PCAS, but it obviously has it's limits. You cannot deny the added value of traffic awareness that ADS-B can offer.

Let's see: Free updated mapping, traffic awareness (mostly but not completely), weather overlay... it's a dream come true. Now if it were only portable, in a package suitable for renters...

What's the buzz? Any portable prospects out there? Does anyone know anything about the NavWorks PADS600? They give you a little bit of data on the website, but not enough to determine what the limits are. If that thing can actually place weather and traffic on my Garmin 495 (which, I do not think it can do weather yet) - the price of $1495 is actually a bargain to me. Better yet - (any folks from NavWorx reading this, please take note...) Make the PADS600 with a USB port to plug your iPhone into... display all of that excitement on my iPhone!

Jeb
Posts: 180
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 10:18 pm

Re: ADS-B... Let's Talk

Postby Jeb » Thu Jan 07, 2010 10:21 am

Thanks for the question! Speaking for me, I'm not aware of any portable ADS-B "solution." I'd guess the hardware isn't too difficult to squeeze into a handheld form factor, but I don't think the market is mature enough. Even presuming the software is fully baked, I'd be shocked to see a portable ADS-B box before more panel-mount boxes arrive.

Then, there's the issue of whether the FAA would even want a portable ADS-B box out there. Sure, the renter "problem" is one that should be addressed, but I'd guess UCAP's favorite aviation agency would prefer to see standardized and TSO'd boxes in the panel, rather than portables any yahoo can mount on their crotch rocket and then go zooming along an Interstate and through Class B airspace. (I'd love to be a fly on the wall at the local TRACON when something like that happens.) Of course, making a portable box ADS-B "in" only would solve that problem, but then at least half of its utility is removed.

Being in FL, like you I'm gently looking around for a decent ADS-B solution. I'm convinced it'll be a couple more years before there's anything that will work and play well with my stuff at a price point I'm willing to sustain. For now, I'm living with XM WX and looking out the window.

HTH!

Jeb

Dave Higdon
Posts: 808
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: ADS-B... Let's Talk

Postby Dave Higdon » Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:38 pm

Soccer Jock -- good thinking on your part...and what Jeb says stands...except...

At AOPA Summit last November one of my visits was with the folks from Mitre Corp's CAASD operation -- Center for Advanced Aviation Systems Development...they're always looking into what sort of blue-sky wild-assed products might be useful to pilots and the FAA...and one of their current projects is an ABS-B Out transmitter that fits into a shirt pocket...the idea is to provide an option for sailplanes, ultralights, for renters in airplanes that don't yet have just so they show up better...

No ADS-B In functionality, though, all of which requires some sort of display...not out of the question, though, and won't be surprised to see ADS-B In capability come to some sort of portable GPS devices in the future...

FWIW...

Dave

DJTorrente
Posts: 190
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2008 3:04 pm

Re: ADS-B... Let's Talk

Postby DJTorrente » Thu Jan 07, 2010 5:30 pm

What concerns me about ADS-B is that in my (admittedly sketchy) understanding, it relies upon each aircraft broadcasting its GPS position and altitude to ATC, who then relay that information to other ADS equipped planes. In fact, the point of all this was to leverage GPS to replace radar. How then do we deal with an aircraft that intentionally or unintentionally loses its broadcast ability?
"Good Rock... Welcome to Oshkosh"
AirVenture 2019: July 22-28 http://www.airventure.org

Like they say in baseball, there's always next year.

-DJTorrente

User avatar
Scofreyjet
Posts: 403
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 11:13 pm
Location: Billerica, MA/KBED

Re: ADS-B... Let's Talk

Postby Scofreyjet » Thu Jan 07, 2010 11:48 pm

Dave Higdon wrote:
...the idea is to provide an option for sailplanes, ultralights, for renters in airplanes that don't yet have just so they show up better...



Yeah, I stopped at the MITRE booth also (I'm an ex-MITRE-ite) and they're doing interesting stuff. However, at AOPA Summit they may have been downplaying the fact that their miniaturized ADS-B solution was driven by the need to integrate Unmanned Aircraft Systems into civilian airspace. :|

http://www.mitre.org/news/releases/07/adsb_05_08_2007.html
Jeff Ward
I love things with wings!
Scofreyjet on Twitter

User avatar
Soccer-Jock
Posts: 132
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2008 9:30 pm
Location: (Eric) Dunedin, Florida

Re: ADS-B... Let's Talk

Postby Soccer-Jock » Fri Jan 08, 2010 8:09 am

DJTorrente wrote:What concerns me about ADS-B is that in my (admittedly sketchy) understanding, it relies upon each aircraft broadcasting its GPS position and altitude to ATC, who then relay that information to other ADS equipped planes. In fact, the point of all this was to leverage GPS to replace radar. How then do we deal with an aircraft that intentionally or unintentionally loses its broadcast ability?


A fair argument, but I personally cannot ever see a time where they will eliminate terminal RADAR. They would give up far too much in the way of information. Radar bounces back information on what's out there (Airplanes, UFOs, Precip,) by contrast ADS-B will only show what "says" it's out there. It has it's value, but as added tool - not a replacement.

The ability to "disappear" from view, electronically by flipping a switch, is not something our government would support. Even today, if you're stupid enough (or negligent enough) to turn off your transponder you simply become an unidentified target - but still a trackable target.

Dave Higdon
Posts: 808
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: ADS-B... Let's Talk

Postby Dave Higdon » Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:18 pm

well....about this Radar thing...Primary can see the signal reflected by metal airplanes...and not with great accuracy like that they want for IFR work; Secondary radar uses the transponder squawk to improve the position accuracy and to get an altitude read-out that, I believe, is plus or minus about 200 in its expected accuracy...

Lose the transponder, no altitude squawk period, so no altitude information...in some parts of the country, radar coverage is largely non-existent...

The only hedge against people trying to game today's system is the people, by and large, are interested more in not getting hit...and I've been with a pilot a couple of times when one turned off the transponder altogether because he feared getting a violation for busting a Class B...nutso thing to do and we didn't fly together again after that trip...

The radars you can expect to be kept longest are the approach radars...

At some point, though, ADS-B and GPS transponder devices will be able to take over ground separation, vehicle management and precision-approach monitoring...systems already exist and are being tested in live environments in Australia and here...

Dave

radenna
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 11:12 pm

Re: ADS-B... Let's Talk

Postby radenna » Fri Feb 05, 2010 3:16 pm

Yes, take a look at the http://www.skyscope.net, we have portable ADSB receiver which communicates wirelessly to iPhone or iPod Touch displaying moving map with traffic and weather overlay.
Here sample video or actual flight recording: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmYrUGxRC88
You will find our solution is completely integrated. If you have iPhone or iPad Touch (iPad version is in the works) you can jump in the plane and fly with it.

Soccer-Jock wrote:What's the buzz? Any portable prospects out there? Does anyone know anything about the NavWorks PADS600? They give you a little bit of data on the website, but not enough to determine what the limits are. If that thing can actually place weather and traffic on my Garmin 495 (which, I do not think it can do weather yet) - the price of $1495 is actually a bargain to me. Better yet - (any folks from NavWorx reading this, please take note...) Make the PADS600 with a USB port to plug your iPhone into... display all of that excitement on my iPhone!
Last edited by radenna on Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

dcrawford
Posts: 1
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:30 pm

Re: ADS-B... Let's Talk

Postby dcrawford » Fri Feb 05, 2010 6:00 pm

There is relaying being done from ATC for ADS-B, but the majority of that is to provide the unified view of both ADS-B participating and non-participating aircraft (transponder targets). ADS-B depends on the "B" for Broadcast for ship to ship data - and that is a good thing as the number of ADS-B participating aircraft increases - you receive data directly from the other aircraft rather than from any ground based system. Ground based re-lay adds in the non-participating targets - and other services such as weather data (if you have "in" capability). There are certainly areas for improvement - NC will shortly have essentially statewide coverage from 600' AGL with the exception of the western mountains. More aircraft are coming into the system all the time. We have successfully tested carry-on ADS-B out only units from Mitre and Free Flight Systems in several exercises here in NC. There are various hardware/software solutions that will even let you display ADS-B traffic data on a PDA that is yoke mounted.

DC
====
Dave Crawford
PP-ASEL
KRDU


Return to “Flight Gear”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests