Any traffic, please advise

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Re: Any traffic, please advise

Postby PilotBillFromTexas » Sun Dec 06, 2009 3:31 pm

I think that the FARs are pretty clear, but you knew that. ;)

I would even grant that "any traffic please advise" could be construed as part of maintaining "vigilance." But, right of way -- no way.

§ 91.113 Right-of-way rules: Except water operations.

(b) General. When weather conditions permit, regardless of whether an operation is conducted under instrument flight rules or visual flight rules, vigilance shall be maintained by each person operating an aircraft so as to see and avoid other aircraft. When a rule of this section gives another aircraft the right-of-way, the pilot shall give way to that aircraft and may not pass over, under, or ahead of it unless well clear.

Date: 8/26/93 ACNo.90-66A
Initiated by: ATP-230

e. The FAA encourages pilots to use the standard traffic pattern. However, for those pilots who choose to execute a straight-in approach, maneuvering for and execution of the approach should be completed so as not to disrupt the flow of arriving and departing traffic. Therefore, pilots operating in the traffic pattern should be alert at all times to aircraft executing straight-in approaches.

f. Pilots who wish to conduct instrument approaches should be particularly alert for other aircraft in the pattern so as to avoid interrupting the flow of traffic. Position reports on the CTAF should include distance and direction from the airport, as well as the pilot’s intentions upon completion of the approach.

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Re: Any traffic, please advise

Postby LimaBravo » Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:46 pm

Hey Champ and PIlotGuy,

Yea I read the regs too when I got home, they were clear to me.

This post just reminded me of the incident, so I thought I would see what input there is out there. I always had the belief the way Champ put it works well with part 91 on how things should go down. I just couldn't believe a long term flyer would try to down play legit VFR guys in the pattern!

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Re: Any traffic, please advise

Postby PilotBillFromTexas » Thu Dec 10, 2009 12:52 pm

I don't know why people do some of the things that they do. He just might not have wanted to admit that he didn't see or hear the other aircraft when he knew that he should have. Who knows? He might have wanted to snow the guy complaining under so that he wouldn't file a formal complaint. IDK?

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Re: Any traffic, please advise

Postby joemurffy » Sat Dec 12, 2009 4:29 am

Looks like the discussion has dispelled any belief that someone on an IFR flight plan has any right-of-way over VFR traffic, especially in VMC. By giving the example of coming in on final and being passed to the CTAF while still above a layer that might still permit VFR pattern-work underneath, I never meant to imply that even this contrived situation would give the IFR guy (or gal) any special privileges. One of my mantras is, "make your own luck," and working into the VMC traffic pattern, whenever possible, is a big part of making my own luck. Not that this is usually true, but as the IFR guy I assume that I am more experienced that someone out doing pattern work; and as such I will always be on the defensive when something could go wrong. (My name is "Murphy") By the way, I LOVE doing pattern work, so no disrespect intended for anyone out there "just" doing pattern work.
Joe Murphy - KPMV

N4706E / N115CC "Circus, Circus"
'51 Aeronca Champ 7CCM / '79 Bellanca Super Viking
'Once you fly fabric, you won't settle for metal.'

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Re: Any traffic, please advise

Postby Dave Higdon » Sun Dec 13, 2009 3:31 pm

Gotta second Joe Murphy's position...and remind even myself that sometimes the best way is a little courtesy and cooperation, even when "in the right" 'cause being "in the right" is no consolation if enforcing that correctness results in something bent or someone bloodied...

Have been in that situation in which legal pattern work was going on at an airport barely above IFR and having to shoot a VOR approach to get down to that barely VFR weather...announcing my presence and intentions on the #2 radio while still talking with approach seemed like the courteous and correct thing to do, and instead my announcement got me a sharp response warning me of a crowded pattern from a fellow who was VFR and shooting touch-and-goes...if i could've gotten below somewhere else and come in VFR I woulda satisfied this guy...come to find out, he and his fellow pattern flyers weren't exactly legal, something I got to tell Approach when I broke out a mile from the airport -- at about 700 agl...

Funny, but nobody was in the pattern when I (ahem) mistakenly used the wrong ;) radio to inform approach I was barely in the clear at 2000 msl...675 agl...

Never pays to be dead right...


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