Line up and Wait

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jmdowney
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Line up and Wait

Postby jmdowney » Thu Sep 30, 2010 7:28 pm

Saw your "Editor's Log" in this month's Aviation Safety Magazine, Jeb and couldn't agree with you more. I must admit I haven't kept up with the controversy so wasn't aware that "a lot of people are acting as if this change is the end of the world." I do share your diappointment in the fact the FAA rolled over on this so easily. I never heard of "position and roll" either, and believe we're just bowing to the Europeans on this. Just another step towards "Europeizing" the US.
I was listening to the tower at DCA this afternoon to catch some of the controllers using the new phraseology. Just like in most changes, it's hard to do the first few times. The first controller I heard seemed to have it down pretty well: "Chautauqua 867, line'er up and wait, runway one-niner". Couple of guys that followed her kept slipping back and forth from old to new to old.
John
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Greg Bockelman
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Re: Line up and Wait

Postby Greg Bockelman » Fri Oct 01, 2010 9:21 pm

Come on, Guys. It just isn't that big a deal.

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PilotBillFromTexas
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Re: Line up and Wait

Postby PilotBillFromTexas » Sat Oct 02, 2010 4:37 am

Greg Bockelman wrote:Come on, Guys. It just isn't that big a deal.

My thought exactly. "Line up and wait" sounds kind of goofy now but, that's only because we are used to hearing "position and hold." "Position and hold" I'm pretty sure is short hand for "taxi into position and hold" that evolved over time. I can imagine the day when "line and wait" will sound as normal as "position and hold" as the magic words to move our birds onto the big white numbers but don't go anywhere yet. This should be comforting to some of us because "line and wait" kind of sounds like "lein and kugels."

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ATC_Ben
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Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Line up and Wait

Postby ATC_Ben » Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:39 pm

Give it 6 months and it'll be shortened to what we have here... "line up"... of course you are gunna wait beause they haven't told you to go!

Just another step towards "Europeizing" the US.


I hope not, the regulator here hasn't finished US'ing our system! :shock:
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Landis
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Re: Line up and Wait

Postby Landis » Wed Oct 06, 2010 3:54 pm

I was flying when they switched (0000Z on 1 Oct) and found it entertaining to hear the controllers at KOAK and KSFO stop saying Position and Hold and start saying Line Up and Wait within the space of a couple minutes.

It does sound weird right now, but I have to say as an instructor who has flown with students for whom English is not the first language, it's a good idea.

"Hold Position" (landing traffic or other issues on the taxiway) and "Position and Hold" are just too close together. I've seen it happen.

I'm waiting to hear "Line up and Land".

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ATC_Ben
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Re: Line up and Wait

Postby ATC_Ben » Fri Oct 08, 2010 12:09 am

00z... that's a strange time to switch over... surely that's not the regular time for things like nav updates and the like? Normally big changes are ushered in overnight, so the morning crew comes in and uses the new words from the start! I would have guessed at 06 or 07z to allow the west coast to go to 'bed' first.

In Aus we use 1600z, but that's because that's 0 Dark 30 here!

This is only a minor change, I personally wonder how much longer ICAO will allow the issue of landing clearances on an occupied runway for you guys. I don't know about the rest of the world, but here in Aus 'cleared to land' means you are the next to land. Otherwise it's just 'continue approach' or occasionally 'continue approach, expect late landing clearance'. Cleared to land on an occupied runway is not used, because when you think about it... you're not! I'm not up on my FAR's but does this change for VMC vs IMC or limited IMC? I wouldn't be comfortable getting a cleared to land number 2 if I'm shooting an approach to near minimas... it gives no time to react if the controller has a boo-boo and doesn't tell you to go around! Or is about to pass out and needs to inhale!
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fordan
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Re: Line up and Wait

Postby fordan » Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:33 am

There's a FAAST seminar this week at my airport on "Line Up and Wait." Can't wait to see how long it is.

"Hey guys, we've replaced 'Position and Hold' with 'Line Up and Wait.' Any questions? Great, fly home safe!"

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denverpilot
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Re: Line up and Wait

Postby denverpilot » Mon Oct 11, 2010 1:48 pm

I'm getting a kick out of listening to controllers on LiveATC.Net...

"Cessna XXXX, Position ... ahhh... Line Up and Wait..."

A major air carrier friend of mine pointed out a very interesting/dangerous difference between how it's done in Europe vs. the U.S. -- a U.S. controller will not clear an aircraft to "Line Up and Wait" while another aircraft is on final. European controllers will do this...

"Airliner XXX, Line Up and Wait following the arriving 737."

Anyone else see an accident waiting to happen in that phrase? I certainly do.

His story was that he was given that exact clearance, an Airbus landed in front of him, and he wondered, "Is there a 737 still out there on final, number two, behind the Airbus? Should I taxi out?" The answer was, of course, no. He waited until the controller asked him why his 777 wasn't rolling, and then the controller said, "Oh, I guess that wasn't a 737, it was an Airbus."

Okay, now reverse it. Let's say the controller meant to say "behind the Airbus" and a 737 landed first... 777 pulls out, 737 hopefully goes around... YIKES!

That runway policy/procedure needs to change in many places in Europe. Like, yesterday.
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gmarshall
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Re: Line up and Wait

Postby gmarshall » Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:35 am

Pretty astonishing that they give conditional clearances like that. For the exact same reason as using standardized phraseology, if a pilot mishears a 'line up and wait after...' clearance as a simple line up and wait, or the controller gets stepped on, or as in your example, someone's confused about what they saw pass by in front of them it's a recipe for disaster.

I wonder if this is something that's in common usage at one or more airports, but actually in violation of standards or something.

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ATC_Ben
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Re: Line up and Wait

Postby ATC_Ben » Wed Oct 20, 2010 8:41 pm

denverpilot... seriously? where? ICAO changed everything with that since the Milan incursion a few years back. The Aussies followed suit and I'd have thought the Europeans would have led the charge!

Down here we'd have...
"Qantas 512, behind the landing 737, line up, behind"

We don't really use "and wait", and the double condition is mandatory for the controller, only needs to be read back once by the aircraft. The use of "follow" would be a big no-no as that is an instruction and you don't want them to follow, you want them to line up behind the landing aircraft!
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