Budget bird of the week

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ebrendan
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Budget bird of the week

Postby ebrendan » Fri Mar 14, 2008 2:21 pm

Awhile ago you guys were taking about the "Budget bird of the week" potentially becoming a regular segment of the show. I for one think it would be great.

This afternoon I spent some time on trade-a-plane's website looking mainly at airplanes I can't afford. However, once I got beyond the G1000 equipped Turbo Skylanes and the factory new Columbia 400's there are some seemingly good buys out there. I found a 1961 Piper PA22 with new paint for $15,000 (link below). And when you start looking between $75,000 - $100,000 there are a tremendous number of options.

For me, the Formation Flight Podcast with Steve, Will & Jason (hope I didn't miss anyone) got me thinking about ownership in a much less abstract way then I was last year-- The rates I'm paying to rent a 172 are having an effect as well-- It would be good for the cause if you could continue to help demystify ownership with the occasional "Budget Bird of the Week" segment.

Appreciated.
- Brendan

1961 PIPER PA22-108 PRICE: $14,950.00
http://www.trade-a-plane.com/clsfdspecs/797647
Brendan Reynolds
Pilot, KFRG Farmingdale NY

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champguy
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Re: Budget bird of the week

Postby champguy » Fri Mar 14, 2008 9:56 pm

Think Champ...Start having fun
Remember, It's how long you spend in the air, not how fast you spend your money, that counts.
Remember, not all who wander, are lost.
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jackhodgson
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Re: Budget bird of the week

Postby jackhodgson » Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:32 pm

Aren't Champs fairly expensive due to their appeal and scarcity?

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champguy
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Re: Budget bird of the week

Postby champguy » Sun Mar 16, 2008 9:36 pm

Not like J-3s
About three years ago they were easy to find, a year later I still had several to pick from, but jumped for the 7CCM I found in North Dakota, as much as I wanted to go to Alaska for the other one that was listed in GAN. Now they are harder to find unless you can be happy with the 7AC with sixty five horse power. Those are still going for low twenties around here.
7ACs will carry one fine, or two large guys to over four thousand feet to clear the coast range, but there is the problem of not being able to pass a U-Haul on a grade. They are easy to start one handed from behind the prop, seaplane style. By far the safest way to prop a plane.
My 7CCM has the "mighty ninety". It takes two hands, standing in front, and when she lights up by god, its a rush. It also takes me and a full load of gear to ten thousand feet to get through the real mountains. Fine in the morning, just don't try that in the afternoon heat and wind.
I paid twenty six, because I knew what I wanted, and soon spent another twelve AMUs to get the inside of the motor to actually agree with the original data plate riveted to the outside of it. Who knows what happened there, or when.
However, when you are away from home, and high over the mountains, a fresh motor, is a really good thing.
Just to piss off a lot of people, a Champ is a much better plane than the J-3, Its way more comfortable, has better visability, and the wing will fly both slower and faster.
Remember, not all who wander, are lost.
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Bruce.McCaskey
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Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 1:30 pm

Champs and Cubs

Postby Bruce.McCaskey » Tue Mar 18, 2008 9:33 am

this is a little sample from the EAA "members only" site - this and all the other EAA benfits are well worth the cost of membership (for example, the member discount on my E-LSA repairman school paid my dues for three years):

"...In laying out the configuration of the Champ, designer Ray Hermes took square aim at his primary competition, the J-3 Cub, which by that time was nearly a decade old. He made a list of every one of the Cub's shortcomings and designed them out of his new airplane. The final lines of the Champ are the net result of anti-Cub design goals.

Forward visibility had always been a Cub weak point and Hermes solved that in two ways. First, he put the pilot in the front seat and, second, he raised the seating position and dropped the nose so the pilot could see straight ahead while on the ground. This is why a Champ appears so high in the cabin, when compared to the Cub. The Cub may have finer, sleeker lines, but the Champ pilot can not only see where he's going but sits up in real comfort (relatively speaking).

...Cubs also came in for criticism in the drafty arrangement of the door. While the split door may be perfect for viewing sunsets today, when the Cub was working for a living, instructors and students alike cursed the leaky doors. The Champion used a hinged, single-piece door not unlike an automobile.

...Ask any who fly a Champ and they'll all say it's a "rudder airplane." That's because its adverse yaw is so pronounced; you either coordinate with rudder or slip and slide around on the seat. It's much more noticeable than in a Cub. This makes it a superb trainer.


...Once on board, the immediate impression will be of visibility and a cheerful airiness. The wing and skylight is so high and the pilot sits so far forward there is none of the "man trapped in an airplane" feeling of so many of the Champ's contemporaries. This is definitely the airplane for a big person.

....There is, however, a difference to the overall "feel" of the controls. Somehow, a Cub feels a little more precise and a touch quicker. We're splitting some very slow-speed hairs at this point, but that seems to be the general opinion."


If you want to build a single seat version of your own from wood, try the plans at:

http://www.lightminiatureaircraft.com ...site is down for maintenance at the moment, here's a picture of it:

http://www.ultralightnews.com/plansbuye ... plans.html

or a similar plane with two seats:

http://www.fisherflying.com/fleet/Horizon2/

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jackhodgson
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Re: Champs and Cubs

Postby jackhodgson » Tue Mar 18, 2008 10:10 am

Very interesting clip on the history, and design diffs, of the Cub and Champ.

I've never flown either one, but I've always found the Champ to be more appealing. Maybe now I know why.

Bruce, a suggestion: go back and edit in a link to the EAA posting you've quoted. Thanks.

-- Jack

Bruce.McCaskey
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EAA Champ/Cub pirep - THE FIRST ONE IS FREE! MWAH HA HA

Postby Bruce.McCaskey » Tue Mar 18, 2008 11:54 am

Hi Jack:

sorry, it wouldn't do any good to post a link to the Champ/Cub comparison because the article is in the "Members Only" section of the EAA site.

I know, I'm a bastard.

That clip was a shameless swindle, un underhanded move to recruit more EAA members, and anyone who wants more of that great stuff will have to join EAA to get access to all the cool stuff. There's much more!

LIke I said, I saved enough on my E-LSA repairman course to pay for three years of EAA membership! Plus all the great help I got registering my E-LSA!

JOIN THE EAA TODAY!

http://www.eaa.org/membership/benefits.asp

;~)

Mwah ha ha

and for those who join, I think the "Sport Aviation" mag is a better value than the "Sport Pilot" mag - SA has about twice the content, and is more like the old EAA Experimenter mag (although still nowhere near as much technical info for builders/designers).
Last edited by Bruce.McCaskey on Tue Mar 18, 2008 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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champguy
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Re: Budget bird of the week

Postby champguy » Tue Mar 18, 2008 12:42 pm

Yes join eaa
Lots more Champ stuff on internet, google to aeronca club and a bunch of other cool sites
I'm planning to fly mine east after Oshkosh to visit old friends and family. Wouldn't do that in a Cub.
I wont have that "can't keep up with a u-haul" problem until the return home. Headwinds Happen in a Champ
I've found I can usually get by traffic when they have to go through a town and I get to fly streight over.
Remember, not all who wander, are lost.
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cozy171bh
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Re: Budget bird of the week

Postby cozy171bh » Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:49 am

With apologies to Champ fans, let me take the Budget Bird topic away from the Champ into another direction. My observation is that most of the 4-place airplanes out there fly off our airport with one or two people aboard. It seems to me that unless you have to fly for business and need an aircraft of specific capabilities, a good option is to buy an economical 2-place and rent when you want to take the family somewhere. In my case, with a family of 6, buying a 6-place bird is out of the question. Even finding one to rent is difficult - and expensive. But I find that my 3-place Cozy (a variation of the Long-EZ) suits our needs most of the time. So my formula for budget flying is to buy (or in my case, build) something cheap and simple, then rent what you need for the more ambitious flying adventures.

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champguy
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Re: Budget bird of the week

Postby champguy » Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:59 am

I can't speak for others, but god never intended me to go that fast. The problem is in arriving before being actually ready. Leads to all sorts of problems.
We have a long ezy here on the field from time to time, he visits up from Reno. He heads home the same time I do. I stop at the Coffee shop and he is in Reno before I get a single chore done on the farm. It is an awesome machine.
Expirementals offer hudge possibilities, as long as you are not getting into something more complex than you personally can take care of. But that is also true about older "budget" certified planes. You get into a fifty or sixty year old factory built plane and you better not be relying on a mechanic sitting on the ground after a once a year checkup.
For that matter, show me an A/P who will fly with you after he has worked on the plane. Makes you think.
Remember, not all who wander, are lost.
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