Ep # 184

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champguy
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Ep # 184

Postby champguy » Sat May 08, 2010 10:09 pm

Thanks guys once again for being there, the voice in my head.
On the GlasStar with the big tail. It is a pet peve of mine, but big tails and fat wings give a plane a wide envelope of good safe handling. This is a good thing.
If you want speed on limited horse power or fuel burn, reduce the wetted surface, go laminar flow and increase the wing loading. OK, but acknowledge what you are giving up. Safe low end handling, and the ability to make a safe approch through some wind shear on a bad day to a short field with the daughter of your inlaws aboard, or the mother of your kids. There is a reason why some of the old legacy LSA birds don't go as fast as the new fast glass birds do, but after fifty years they are still bringing us home, every time. Be safe out there, live long and prosper.
Remember, not all who wander, are lost.
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champguy
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Re: Ep # 184

Postby champguy » Sat May 08, 2010 10:22 pm

Oh
You have got to get over apologising for the video links, we love them, just not while driving. As long as they are in the show notes we can look when we get safely home.
And to the volcanic ash thing. I listened to the audio clip on AvWeb about the DC10 ten years ago and understand that this is a real issue. You can't just put an oil soaked sock over the inlet of a freaking big jet engine. The internal parts are really hot, moving very fast, and very very expensive.
Remember, not all who wander, are lost.
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Warmkessel
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Re: Ep # 184

Postby Warmkessel » Tue May 11, 2010 1:02 pm

Hi Jack,

With regards to the Antonov An-2 that was located at Livermore, I've watched that aircraft for years. I was parked out on the ramp (in the tired aircraft parking) for quite some number of years. However, I am happy to report that it did in fact fly out of Livermore to parts unknown. I can't vouch for it airworthness, however

Best wishes,

J.R. Warmkessel

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Sven
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Re: Ep # 184

Postby Sven » Wed May 12, 2010 1:10 am

I count over 40 seconds from the time I first saw the contrail of the jet at 3:18 to the time the jet passes at 4:02. If this pilot's head was outside the cockpit he should have noticed the airliner coming at him. I'm just a simple private pilot looking at a terrible quality video and I saw it right away. This should not have been close at all regardless of the ATC mistake.
Flying a Mooney M20D. One of only 3 fixed-gear Mooney aircraft still flying.

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lucaberta
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Re: Ep # 184

Postby lucaberta » Wed May 12, 2010 9:40 am

Sven wrote:I count over 40 seconds from the time I first saw the contrail of the jet at 3:18 to the time the jet passes at 4:02. If this pilot's head was outside the cockpit he should have noticed the airliner coming at him. I'm just a simple private pilot looking at a terrible quality video and I saw it right away. This should not have been close at all regardless of the ATC mistake.

well Sven, since they were all straight and level at FL360, the contrail of the jetliner came right over the ground/sky mark on the HUD, and the first time I saw the video I have to say that I was mistaken too! It's too easy to draw a conclusion then second and third time you watch the video, in my opinion.

And be honest, if you happen to fly IFR in the flight levels, do you always keep your head out scanning for traffic? I am sorry, I don't buy a "yes" for an answer to this question... :)

The ATC mistake was aggravated by the transponder failure on the leader plane, it took them way too long to decide to switch on the wingman transponder, in my opinion. And the ATCO was also way too fixated on the transponder issue, and he clearly missed the initial pilot call that clearly said "FL360".

This could have been Brazil all over again, and on very deep waters in the middle of the Thyrrenian Sea. Sheer luck nothing much happened.

Ciao, Luca
Luca Bertagnolio, CPL/ASEL/AMEL/ASES/IR

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FrankS_Six-Zero
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Re: Ep # 184

Postby FrankS_Six-Zero » Sun May 16, 2010 4:47 pm

lucaberta wrote:
Sven wrote:I count over 40 seconds from the time I first saw the contrail of the jet at 3:18 to the time the jet passes at 4:02. If this pilot's head was outside the cockpit he should have noticed the airliner coming at him. I'm just a simple private pilot looking at a terrible quality video and I saw it right away. This should not have been close at all regardless of the ATC mistake.

well Sven, since they were all straight and level at FL360, the contrail of the jetliner came right over the ground/sky mark on the HUD, and the first time I saw the video I have to say that I was mistaken too! It's too easy to draw a conclusion then second and third time you watch the video, in my opinion.

And be honest, if you happen to fly IFR in the flight levels, do you always keep your head out scanning for traffic? I am sorry, I don't buy a "yes" for an answer to this question... :)

Ciao, Luca


Of course, having listened to the episode and knowing what to expect, I'm sure made seeing the contrail a whole lot easier.

Frank

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Sven
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Re: Ep # 184

Postby Sven » Sun May 16, 2010 8:33 pm

If I would have waited 40 seconds before doing a thorough scan outside the cockpit my instructor would have failed me. And, there are two pilots in the airliner that obviously saw nothing since there was no evasive maneuver on their part. Perhaps they were all on their laptops.
Flying a Mooney M20D. One of only 3 fixed-gear Mooney aircraft still flying.

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lucaberta
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Re: Ep # 184

Postby lucaberta » Sun May 16, 2010 9:33 pm

Sven wrote:If I would have waited 40 seconds before doing a thorough scan outside the cockpit my instructor would have failed me. And, there are two pilots in the airliner that obviously saw nothing since there was no evasive maneuver on their part. Perhaps they were all on their laptops.

again Sven, do you fly regularly in the flight levels, where you only have IFR traffic under clearance around you? If so, do you always do a visual scan outside, at least every 40 seconds as you say?

If the answer is yes, good for you and your passengers, but I am sure that you are doing this with only a small minority of other pilots. TCAS was invented for cases like these too, except that it doesn't work when one of the two transponders is off, like in this case and in the Brazil one, both very much corner cases in my opinion.

Ciao, Luca
Luca Bertagnolio, CPL/ASEL/AMEL/ASES/IR

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Sven
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Re: Ep # 184

Postby Sven » Sun May 16, 2010 10:54 pm

I admit complete ignorance on this topic as I have never piloted an aircraft IFR, ever. I have no clue what it takes to keep an automated aircraft flying at 32,000 ft straight and level. Heck, I don't even have an autopilot on my plane and my GPS is a lowly Garmin 496. Apparently, what everyone is saying is that when flying IFR you are in the cockpit more than outside the cockpit. Even though the plane at that altitude is on autopilot (another big assumption on my part) there is so much to do that most of your time is spent looking at instruments in order to keep the plane flying. Someone correct me if I'm wrong on that as I would honestly like to know what IFR pilots are looking at. And I am also assuming everyone has enough trust in ATC to be able to do that.

I have only been a passenger on an airliner. As a passenger, I trust the crew and ATC to not let us run into anything out there. So, it is out of complete ignorance that I ask this question. How much time do airline pilots and military pilots spend looking around instead of looking at screens and instruments? As a ignorant passenger, I am trusting that someone is looking out the window. Maybe that's unrealistic of me. I can happily concede that. As a humble VFR pilot I spend most of my time looking out the window (even without a robot flying the plane) as my instructor taught me. Are IFR pilots taught to look inside most of the time?

As I am thinking about getting my IFR ticket, what can I expect to be looking at that would keep my attention so focused inside the cockpit that I might run into an airliner and never see it coming? My GPS? My engine instruments? My paper charts? My flight plan? I'm not trying to be belligerent, I honestly don't know.

Again, this is my ignorance talking but I thought an autopilot was there to reduce your workload so you can spend more time looking outside. Or maybe my brain is in fairyland where unicorns fart glitter and watermellon Jolly Ranchers. I am also prepared to hear that flying IFR is very boring at times and in order to stay awake I am choosing to do something more entertaining than looking out a window at airliners coming straight at me (which should be pretty exciting). My instructor told me once that TCAS stood for The Captain's Attention Substitute. As far as what I do, I was taught to engage my passengers as extra eyes and call out what they see. I was taught a quick scan inside and a very deliberate scan outside. That's how I narrowly avoided an owl a couple months ago.

I wonder if I were to ask the fighter pilot his thoughts on looking outside vs. inside what he'd say today? And I wonder if the airline pilots even knew what happened? I bet a couple passengers did.
Flying a Mooney M20D. One of only 3 fixed-gear Mooney aircraft still flying.

gmarshall
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Re: Ep # 184

Postby gmarshall » Mon May 17, 2010 1:58 am

At flight levels, just about every aircraft is going to be booming about at a high subsonic speeds. True airspeeds will be somewhere between 400 and 500 knots.

Ballpark figures, that's near 10 miles a minute, or around a mile every six seconds.

If two aircraft are approaching each other in opposite directions, that gives you a mile every 3 seconds.

Tell me that keeping your head on a swivel gives you any reasonable assurance that you're going to spot another airliner?

One way I've heard it described is approaching aircraft are a speck in the sky. By the time the speck sprouts wings, it's too late to perform any evasive maneuvers.

If you spot an oncoming aircraft, trying to visually judge what the appropriate response is, climb, dive, turn left or right, takes time.

This is one of the reasons why there's a 250 kt speed limit down low where all the VFR aircraft are, while at the flight levels, everything is IFR, positively controlled in Class A airspace. The exception on ATC control is obviously over the ocean where there's no radar coverage.


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