Episode 211 The kid who stole the airplanes!

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Biggles71
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Episode 211 The kid who stole the airplanes!

Postby Biggles71 » Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:45 pm

Listened to your episode concerning the position and hold and conditional clearances.
I've been using conditional clearances in Europe and most of the world for years as an airline captain and GA pilot. It is what ICAO radio phraseology describes in their R/T procedures.

A clearance would sound like: "GJT behind the landing 737 line up runway 25 behind"

Notice that "behind" is used twice in the phrase. Just in case one gets lost in a double transmission or so.

It is particularly useful to reduce runway occupancy rates at busy airports.
I do find it safe as long as a strict radio discipline is applied and I do not know of any accidents that happened due to the use of this phrase. One again this has been around for decades outside the US!

Feel free to use this post and my name in a future podcast is it helps!

Best regards from Dubai,

BJORN
Training captain Airbus A330-A340
CFII/TRI/TRE/ATPL
http://www.bjornmoerman.com
Flying was my first love and it will be my last one!

MerlinFAC
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Re: Episode 211 The kid who stole the airplanes!

Postby MerlinFAC » Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:43 pm

Re: the "unpiloted" crash in Central Florida... the guy involved (Ken) is a friend of mine, I talked to him this morning about the incident (and of course pointed him to UCAP :)

Here's the scoop... a Mooney got into an incident and the insurance company totalled it. The owner bought his plane back at the auction, and they put on a new prop and checked things over. He then hired Ken to ferry it from Massey Air Ranch to Flagler county (a fairly short flight.) Ken had some friends whop were heading out for a pancake breakfast and so they figured they'd just give him a ride up to Massey. So they got there, and ran the engine for a good 20 minutes without any hiccups.

Upon takeoff, the engine quit at about 200 feet, andhe was unable to get the nose down enough to keep flying. He hit the terrain going forward a little bit, but mostly down. He got out and had a big cut on his forehead and was pretty sore. His friends were still there watching. After Ken lay down for a while trying to get the bleeding to stop, the FAA was in fact called and properly notified immediately after the incident. Since the plane wasn't blocking any aircraft movement areas nor was it posing a danger, he decided it would be just as well to head back home to see his own doctor. The owner came and chopped up the plane and put it on a trailer, since it was destined to be scrapped anyway.

Apparently where things went wacky is that the local cops considered this a case of leaving the scene of an (auto) accident, and notified the sheriff in our county to go look for Ken (they ascertained that he was OK and that it was an FAA matter, not a police one). No idea how the news got ahold of it but it really wasn't quite as portrayed, the news crews camped out in front of Ken's house for their 11PM newscasts that night.

As it turns out, Ken cracked two vertebra in his neck, which has caused some soreness but which didn't require surgery... he said it's healing up fine. Fortunately, this worked out well, but it definitely could have been tragic.

What's probably most shocking to me is the reason the engine quit. Apparently, Ken learned (too late) that this kind of Mooney sits a bit nose-low, and the fuel tank is designed in such a way that there is a low spot at the front of the tank. The tanks had been empty for a few weeks before this flight while the plane sat. Therefore, a large amount of water was trapped in the tank... but not in a place that would come out when you sump the tanks!! That's why it ran fine for 20 minutes on the ground, UNTIL takeoff when the plane rotated back and let all that the water run down to the fuel pickup, leading to a flameout at the worst possible moment.

Apparently, Ken's wife's made him promise not to do any more ferry flights... but that's a topic for another thread :)

And now, you know "the rest of the story"...

-Mike

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jackhodgson
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Re: Episode 211 The kid who stole the airplanes!

Postby jackhodgson » Sun Nov 07, 2010 8:13 am

Thanks for the detail on the incident. Glad your friend is -- more or less -- OK.

Now for the cognitive dissonance part. Ever since we've been doing this podcast it's always weirded me out to discover that someone we talk about (sometimes babble about) has actually heard what we said. Each time I have to go back and listen to what we said in the hope that we weren't totally insensitive or completely half-assed in our "analysis".

It's times like these when I think we should add to the disclaimer, that what we do isn't news reporting, it isn't serious analysis, or training of any kind. It's just some pilots getting together and shooting the shit about things we've seen or heard.

Again, glad your friend's OK.

MerlinFAC
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Re: Episode 211 The kid who stole the airplanes!

Postby MerlinFAC » Tue Nov 09, 2010 12:02 am

Hehe, not to worry... face it, the story IS pretty funny, especially the way the media spun it into some big mystery! I'm sure Ken wouldn't be offended with anything you guys said.

I have a rule of thumb about everything involving aviation (or other recreational activities)... if you're not having fun with it, you must be doing it wrong! :D

Dave Higdon
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Re: Episode 211 The kid who stole the airplanes!

Postby Dave Higdon » Wed Nov 10, 2010 6:50 pm

MerlinFAC wrote:I have a rule of thumb about everything involving aviation (or other recreational activities)... if you're not having fun with it, you must be doing it wrong! :D


Your rule of thumb is very close to mine: If you're not having fun with -- or at least enjoying whatever -- why do it?

Flying squarely falls into that corner -- as does even doing this podcast thingee ;)

Glad to hear your friend walked -- sorta -- away...similar arrival befell a close friend when an engine died on an airplane he was ferrying about 100 miles...landing sounds similar, too...and my friend's damage was some cracked vertebra in his middle back...surgery was needed -- but he was ambulatory right after the plane stopped moving...and his moving could've cost him use of his legs...

Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good...

Dave

Greg Bockelman
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Re: Episode 211 The kid who stole the airplanes!

Postby Greg Bockelman » Thu Nov 18, 2010 4:12 pm

Just listened to the Line Up and Wait stuff. I can confirm, being an international 121 pilot for a US legacy, that they use conditional LUAW clearances. "Behind landing (whatever), line up and wait." It has never seemed to me like it was that big a deal.

For what it is worth, I don't see the US controllers doing that. I think they will do it the way they have always done that, and I don't think there will be any REQUIREMENT for them to do it the other way.

In other words, I think you spent 10 minutes on a non issue. :lol:

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ATC_Ben
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Re: Episode 211 The kid who stole the airplanes!

Postby ATC_Ben » Fri Nov 19, 2010 6:20 am

Greg Bockelman wrote:... "Behind landing (whatever), line up and wait." ...


Greg, can you confirm it's "behind xxx LUAW behind"?? I'd be interested if there are any ANSP's (Air Navigation Service Providers) that are not yet using the 'double condition' phraseology. Down under we switched over fairly quickly after ICAO recommended it post the Milan runway incursion accident investigation.
Caelus latus sursum

Greg Bockelman
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Re: Episode 211 The kid who stole the airplanes!

Postby Greg Bockelman » Fri Nov 19, 2010 11:17 am

I can confirm that in China and Frankfurt they do NOT say behind twice. "Behind landing XXX, line up and wait." That is all.

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ATC_Ben
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Re: Episode 211 The kid who stole the airplanes!

Postby ATC_Ben » Sun Nov 21, 2010 3:16 am

Greg Bockelman wrote:I can confirm that in China and Frankfurt they do NOT say behind twice. "Behind landing XXX, line up and wait." That is all.

Very interesting indeed, thanks Greg.
Caelus latus sursum

Dave Higdon
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Re: Episode 211 The kid who stole the airplanes!

Postby Dave Higdon » Mon Nov 22, 2010 5:07 pm

One of the consistent hallmarks of aviation around the world is its inconsistencies :roll: ...

Dave


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