#329

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champguy
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#329

Postby champguy » Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:31 pm

The only thing worse than a lawyer, is not having a good one. Sounds like the EAA has one and good luck to them. And thanks for handling the whole mess like adults. We all need a whole lot more of that.
Remember, not all who wander, are lost.
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cozy171bh
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Re: #329

Postby cozy171bh » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:05 am

In my position as a Manager of Flight Ops Safety and 757 Check Airman for a national airline, people tend to pepper me with questions regarding the Asiana accident, thinking that I possess inside information. However, I tend to refrain from drawing conclusions and prefer to await the accident report. Long after the media have forgotten the story, the NTSB report will be published, and a deep read will reveal an interesting story, as is usually the case for these investigations.

Some random thoughts:

I'm still digesting the new approach by the NTSB to liberally release information. I thought Jeb was going to comment on this in the podcast, but the conversation moved to another point. Given his background, I'd be interested in his thoughts on the matter. On the one hand, it is interesting to receive the information as they discover it, but absent the full spectrum of information from the final analysis of the investigation, leaves a lot to speculation by all of the media and armchair "experts". I'll wait. I think the UCAP gang handled the discussion very well.

It is interesting to note that earlier this year the FAA released a SAFO (Safety Alert for Operators) titled Manual Flight Operations. Only a page long, it cites the hazard of the over-reliance on automation to the point pilots loose their manual flying skills. It encourages operators to engage in more hand flying in line operations and training. (A personal observation: Those pilots who also fly GA outside their airline flying tend to have better stick and rudder proficiency. I have heard, but have not confirmed, that at least one airline is considering light aircraft proficiency in their training program. Lufthansa?)

I think Dave's observation on the autothrottle differences between the Airbus and the Boeing is very insightful. As a human factors guy, I think that the fixed throttle design (Airbus) vs. the moving throttle design (Boeing) can cause a flawed perception of what the autothrottle system is doing. Certainly not causal, but perhaps contributory to this event. We'll see. As a check airman, the lesson plans with a pilot new to the 757 covers differences from the previous aircraft type. When transitioning from one type to another, even (particularly) for a very experienced pilot, old aircraft-specific habits and the inappropriate transfer of knowledge or procedure from one aircraft type to another can be a real gotcha. Emphasis on this area throughout transition training is a must.

One of my colleagues and fellow managers in the flight department flew for Asiana as an instructor for 4 years before joining my airline. Regarding the email that has been widely circulated from a disgruntled expat pilot, my colleague knows the individual who wrote that. He stated that while there are some factual elements in the email, the author had a sizable chip on his shoulder and inflated information. It will be interesting to see the NTSB report on the degree to which automation dependency may have dulled the pilots' basic skills. This is a concern not only for Asiana, but also here at home.

The folks at the NTSB are true professionals. Looking forward to their report....

Dave Higdon
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Re: #329

Postby Dave Higdon » Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:03 pm

Thanks for the observations and reinforcement of our approach, cozy171bh...much appreciate it...

My only thought on your thoughtful note regards the more relaxed info-release approach of the team investigating this accident: the speculation you rightly are concerned with happens anyway...it, in my view, deprives the professional "opinionator", if you will, of fodder on which to speculate when facts enter the picture...of course, the flip side of this is the pro who never lets facts interfere with a good-old baseless turn to "absent that information, what could have happened is..."

Nothing attracts media consumers better than conflict and mystery...so they start with the mystery and generate the conflict...

Nothing better deflates the speculators than disclosure...it's the analysis that's hard for the leads-if-it-bleeds gang to follow...and it's the analysis that produces answers...

Thanks!

Jeb
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Re: #329

Postby Jeb » Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:03 pm

cozy171bh:

I wrote the following editorial for August's Aviation Safety within 48 hours of the crash:

"As this is written, the wreckage of Asiana Airlines Flight 214, a Boeing 777 that crashed while attempting to land at the San Francisco (Calif.) International Airport (SFO) on July 6, 2013, is still being examined. The accident was the
first on U.S. soil involving a large jet transport since November 2001, and the first accident involving passenger fatalities aboard a U.S. scheduled carrier since 2009. It also was the first involving a fatality aboard a 777.

According to the NTSB’s Twitter feed, a preliminary review of the 777’s cockpit voice and flight data recorders (CVR and FDR) depicts a normal approach to SFO’s Runway 28L, until the final few seconds. At some point before reaching the runway, the 777’s throttles had been retarded to idle and the aircraft slowed to below VREF. Less than 10 seconds before impact, a crewmember called out for increased speed. Less than five seconds before impact, the stick shaker
activated. Less than two seconds before impact, a crewmember called for a go around.

At this point, the throttles were advanced and the engines responded. However, the aft fuselage struck the sea wall approximately 500 feet from the Runway 28L threshold, shearing off the empennage at the aft pressure bulkhead. Parts of the airplane, including the vertical stabilizer, both horizontal stabilizers and main landing gear wheels, are seen below in an image of wreckage distribution near the runway’s threshold. Presuming these preliminary indications are accurate, this accident appears to have resulted from...well, you can draw your own conclusions.

At this point, I normally would write something to the effect it will be months before the NTSB has sifted through the evidence and determined a probable cause. However, the NTSB has seen fit to make public its preliminary findings
via Twitter. In my experience, this is new and different behavior for the Board, which traditionally has kept such information under tight control. I hope this isn’t an indication of things to come and that all information involving an accident will be considered before this type of material is released to the public."

Jeb

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champguy
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Re: #329

Postby champguy » Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:15 pm

It is a good time for all of us to drink our whiskey in silence, keep our minds open, and fly the plane, after 8 hours of course. Automation has improved safety, too much automation has led to problems. Staying current on systems with too many f****** buttons is a problem, and so is where the f**** am I. All this is above my pay grade.
Tomorrow I fly, safely I hope.
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DJTorrente
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Re: #329

Postby DJTorrente » Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:27 pm

Re: NTSB talking to the press

Here's another example in the SWA nosegear collapse incident at LGA last week:

The Southwest Airlines plane whose nose gear collapsed while landing at New York's LaGuardia Airport touched down nose-first, federal investigators announced Thursday.

The National Transportation Safety Board, which investigates crashes, had earlier said that the Boeing 737-700's nose gear punched up into the jet's electronics bay in the crash Monday.

Planes typically touch down first with the main landing gear beneath the wings, before having the nose settle. Investigators said the plane's nose was still pitched upward slightly — 2 degrees — four seconds before landing, but then touched down while pitched downward 3 degrees.

Ten people were injured when the plane skidded 2,175 feet along the runway before coming to rest in a grassy area. The accident temporarily closed the airport and forced the cancellation of hundreds of flights.

Investigators are reviewing the data and cockpit voice recorder to see what happened during those final moments of the flight. The data recorder tracked information on 1,000 elements of the flight and the two hours of voice recording captures the entire flight from Nashville, investigators said.


http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... b/2588015/

-DJT
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DJTorrente
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Re: #329

Postby DJTorrente » Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:14 pm

More on the SWA 737 Nosegear Collapse at LGA:

Found at least two passenger videos:

http://westchester.news12.com/news/vide ... -1.5756248
http://youtu.be/RMhQoltYAVA

There's also a terminal security cam video out there (http://youtu.be/JW1PaPbPSOM), but it doesn't show much, just a shower of sparks after the impact.

-DJT
Last edited by DJTorrente on Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Good Rock... Welcome to Oshkosh"
AirVenture 2016: July 25-31 2017: July 24-30 http://www.airventure.org

Like they say in baseball, there's always next year.

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cozy171bh
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Re: #329

Postby cozy171bh » Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:23 pm

Jeb and Dave - Nicely said. Dave with his nimble use of the language and Jeb with his spot on logic.

Isn't it curious that the mystery of the accident in the immediate wake of the event generates the most viewership because of just what Dave said. 18 months later when the final report is released, the only audience left is those in the profession and a handful of other interested observers. It is difficult to hype a factual report void of mystery.

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champguy
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Re: #329

Postby champguy » Sun Jul 28, 2013 6:09 pm

Nose wheels are an invention of the devil. No good can come of it.
Real pilots don't need "Land-o-matic" and learn to fly the plane all the way to the tie down.
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plutocrat03
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Re: #329

Postby plutocrat03 » Wed Oct 02, 2013 6:52 pm

Reports are that the SWA Captain has been released by the airline and the First Officer has been sent for retraining .....


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