Episode #149: "Pre 9/11 Pooch"

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t0r0nad0
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Episode #149: "Pre 9/11 Pooch"

Postby t0r0nad0 » Tue Aug 18, 2009 12:08 pm

Hey Guys,

Once again, another great episode - and thanks for again using my opening disclaimer.

I was intrigued by your conversation on instruction given by CFI-SP's, so I did a little FAR-diving to find out what the requirements were... after reading through Subpart K of Part 61, I was pleasantly surprised! I am not a lawyer, so my interpretation could be off, but it appears that you can become a CFI-SP if you: have at least a Sport Pilot Certificate in the category and class of LSA you want to give instruction in, pass a Fundamentals of Instruction written and CFI-SP written test, have at least 150 flight hours, including 100 hrs PIC in powered aircraft, 50 hrs in a single-engine plane, 25 hrs cross country, 10 hrs cross-country in a single-engine plane, and 15 hours PIC in a single-engine LSA, and you pass a checkride with an FAA examiner.

By this token, as a Private Pilot and Ground Instructor with 114 hours, 73 PIC, 43 cross country (all but 0.5 SEL time), and 0 LSA time, I could do my instructor training in an LSA to build those 15 hours (counting both Dual Received and PIC time, as I'll be the sole manipulator of the controls under 14 CFR 61.51(e)), fly any SEL to build the 100 PIC SEL, take the written for the CFI-SP (I've already passed the FOI written for my ground instructor certificate), and take my checkride to become a CFI-SP. I'll have to seriously consider that, I really enjoy teaching the ground school, and my students keep prodding me to become a CFI so they can fly with me, I just don't have the money at the moment to build the time, get my instrument, commercial, and full CFI, so this might be a good stepping-stone for me. With the big push going on right now to get Sport Pilot to take hold, I wonder if there are scholarships available out there for someone to get their CFI-SP certificate?

The only thing I didn't see in the regs were whether or not a CFI-SP could be compensated for their instruction if they don't possess a commercial pilot certificate.

Back to the conversation in the podcast, you lamented the FAA's decisions that the time spent training with a CFI-SP on the basic maneuvers could not be counted toward the PPL, and someone mentioned that it's about 10 hours. While this is an unfortunate decision and once again proves the FAA's devotion to inconsistency, I think that this will be a minor inconvenience, at best. All of their solo time counts, which is AT LEAST anohter 10 hours, and once the SP/PPL Student proves to their CFI that they possess the necessary basic airmanship skills, it will still take an extra 10-15 hours dual to go through the longer cross-country, night flight, and simulated instrument flight required for the PPL. If they still need a fe hours to get to the minimum 40, they can exercise their SP privileges to go get a couple of $100 hamburgers.

Does anyone else have any extra thoughts about what I've mentioned here?
-PJ

PP-ASEL as of 8/15/2007
AGI as of 6/30/2008
FAASTeam Representative

States in which I have been the sole manipulator of the controls on takeoff and/or landing:
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Charley2
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Re: Episode #149: "Pre 9/11 Pooch"

Postby Charley2 » Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:43 am

As for the part of being compensated for cfi-sp. My personal opinion is that you can (although I have nothing to back that up with in the regs). The FAA considers a CFI as being paid for being an instructor...not a pilot. That is why they only require a 3rd class medical to be an instructor. I guess you will have to maintain at least a 3rd class medical though.

Just my opinion...be glad to hear the FAA's interpretation.

t0r0nad0
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Re: Episode #149: "Pre 9/11 Pooch"

Postby t0r0nad0 » Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:45 am

Charley2 wrote:As for the part of being compensated for cfi-sp. My personal opinion is that you can (although I have nothing to back that up with in the regs). The FAA considers a CFI as being paid for being an instructor...not a pilot. That is why they only require a 3rd class medical to be an instructor. I guess you will have to maintain at least a 3rd class medical though.

Just my opinion...be glad to hear the FAA's interpretation.


That's what I'm thinking too, but I would also be interested to hear what the FAA has to say on it.
-PJ

PP-ASEL as of 8/15/2007
AGI as of 6/30/2008
FAASTeam Representative

States in which I have been the sole manipulator of the controls on takeoff and/or landing:
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champguy
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Re: Episode #149: "Pre 9/11 Pooch"

Postby champguy » Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:29 pm

As always, the final word is not the FAA, but your insurance carrier.
Remember, not all who wander, are lost.
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jschnud
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Re: Episode #149: "Pre 9/11 Pooch"

Postby jschnud » Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:54 pm

Nice episode. Hit home for me in a lot of ways.

I was listening to the episode while driving past Rochester, WI, home of American Decathlon. Does anybody know if the factory still has the dirt, not turf, runway?

I threw a passenger out of my plane once. He was a flight examiner. And it was during my first private-pilot check ride. While we were airborne, I smelled gas in the cockpit. He didn't and insisted that we continue on. I landed at the first airport I could find. While on the ground, the mechanic I found couldn't really find a leak. He tightened some clamps on the fuel line, but thought I was being overly cautious. I didn't pass the check ride. But the examiner still had to walk home or call for a ride because I didn't let him back in the plane. :D

My wife and daughter were at North Avenue Beach in Chicago when James flew over in the jet. (L-39? Can't remember) She called me from the beach to say that there was a military jet circling overhead. I asked if it was blue and yellow (Blue Angels) or red, white and blue (Thunderbirds) and she said no, it was just gray. Anyway, James, my wife and daughter waved hello to you as you flew overhead. 8-)

Jeb seemed surprised that Wisconsin had both a Wolf and a Fox river. Turns out Wisconsin actually has 2 Fox Rivers. One flows south into Illinois, eventually working its way to the Illinois river then down to the Mississippi. The other, which flows into Lake Winnebago, is a rarity in the continental United States in that it actually flows north. :o

Aerco
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Re: Episode #149: "Pre 9/11 Pooch"

Postby Aerco » Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:53 am

Charley2 wrote:As for the part of being compensated for cfi-sp. My personal opinion is that you can (although I have nothing to back that up with in the regs). The FAA considers a CFI as being paid for being an instructor...not a pilot. That is why they only require a 3rd class medical to be an instructor. I guess you will have to maintain at least a 3rd class medical though.

Just my opinion...be glad to hear the FAA's interpretation.


Yes and No - yes, you can be paid as a CFI-SP and no, you do not need a medical. I have been looking into this very deeply too, since it is the only option open to me in the world of professional aviation due to my inability to get my a CLass 2 (I am a PPL with a Class3). Of course the same Catch 22 applies, if you get a medical rejected, you're done.

Greg Bockelman
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Re: Episode #149: "Pre 9/11 Pooch"

Postby Greg Bockelman » Fri Aug 21, 2009 5:20 pm

Aerco wrote:
Charley2 wrote:As for the part of being compensated for cfi-sp. My personal opinion is that you can (although I have nothing to back that up with in the regs). The FAA considers a CFI as being paid for being an instructor...not a pilot. That is why they only require a 3rd class medical to be an instructor. I guess you will have to maintain at least a 3rd class medical though.

Just my opinion...be glad to hear the FAA's interpretation.


Yes and No - yes, you can be paid as a CFI-SP and no, you do not need a medical. I have been looking into this very deeply too, since it is the only option open to me in the world of professional aviation due to my inability to get my a CLass 2 (I am a PPL with a Class3). Of course the same Catch 22 applies, if you get a medical rejected, you're done.


There is no reason you can't get a commercial, instrument AND CFI with just a third class medical. The only caveat is that you cannot exercise the privileges of your commercial without the second class medical. And you do NOT need a second class medical to be a CFI. So, if it is your desire to be a full blown CFI, there is no reason you can't do that with a third class medical.

Aerco
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Re: Episode #149: "Pre 9/11 Pooch"

Postby Aerco » Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:52 pm

Greg Bockelman wrote:


There is no reason you can't get a commercial, instrument AND CFI with just a third class medical. The only caveat is that you cannot exercise the privileges of your commercial without the second class medical. And you do NOT need a second class medical to be a CFI. So, if it is your desire to be a full blown CFI, there is no reason you can't do that with a third class medical.



Yes, to my great joy, I have also just discovered this! Talk about a life-changing discovery. I just ordered all the relevant study materials - beginning with CFI-SP and going on from there. I'll be busy.

Greg Bockelman
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Re: Episode #149: "Pre 9/11 Pooch"

Postby Greg Bockelman » Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:12 pm

Aerco wrote:Yes, to my great joy, I have also just discovered this! Talk about a life-changing discovery. I just ordered all the relevant study materials - beginning with CFI-SP and going on from there. I'll be busy.


Congratulations on your "discovery". Nice to breath new life in a dream.

MartySantic
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Re: Episode #149: "Pre 9/11 Pooch"

Postby MartySantic » Sat Aug 22, 2009 6:51 pm

I had to agree with the comments regarding the Sport Pilot CFI. I totally agree that the FAA interpretation of the regulations is just plain and simple upside down. Hours are hours. Dual hours with a Sport Pilot-CFI should count torward the next level, the private pilot certificate.

As I understand the sport pilot regulations, a sport pilot certificate is issued without stating a particular category and class. From the FAA website, if the sport pilot wishes to fly a different category/class (e.g. seaplane) ......

(1) A Proficiency Check is required if the pilot holds a FAA pilot certificate and wants to fly a different category or class of aircraft at the Sport Pilot level. A Proficiency Check is only done by an authorized flight instructor or an FAA inspector. The FAA form 8710-11 is used to record the Proficiency Check. This form is completed by the applicant, signed by the recommending instructor and presented, prior to the flight, to the instructor or inspector performing the Proficiency check. The Practical Test Standards are used in conducting a Proficiency Check and the FAA FORM 8710-11 must be mailed to the Airman Certification Branch in Oklahoma City within 10 days.

If the applicant passes the proficiency check, (I assume it can be administered by a CFI-Sport Pilot), the CFI-SP simply endorses the applicant's logbook and then the applicant can exercise the privileges in the new category and class. The only requirement being, the CFI-SP that gave the instruction in the new class cannot be the same CFI-SP that administers the proficiency check.

Thus, the land-bound Sport Pilot could receive training, receive and pass a proficiency check in a Light Sport Seaplane, then, with a logbook endorsement fly the seaplane.

As such the CFI-Sport Pilot appears to be superior and not inferior to the normal CFI. I don't beleive the normal CFI has that power. An FAA examiner is required to administer the check for the Private Pilot-SEL transitioning to the seaplane.

So.....How can the FAA consider the instruction given by a CFI-SP is different than the instruction given by a CFI? Inconsistencies abound!

Am I missing something here??


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